Normally I'd say the latter. [which inspires a whole other mess of feelings that aren't pleasant.] But...this went differently than our time. If you're hearing from the dead and you're seeing this thing and you're learning stuff about it....that's more than we ever got.
It isn't as though I was going to say oh well, guess I'll die even if you said it was nothing. [Hmm.] What about you? If we're not fucked, are you then fucked? With the rate you've all been turning, I can't imagine you have all that much time left to see us all dead.
[Hmm. She considers this question a little thoughtfully.]
Yes, and no. I don't really expect any of you to lay down your lives or give up the things you want for us. And that's essentially what we'd be asking, with no promise it would even work. If I understand correctly, Pride and Despair are among those who want to stick to the plan. I don't particularly feel surprised or misled by that. [Neither of them ever suggested they were here to make friends? Honestly, Pride especially essentially told her not to believe she'd get out of here without a fight.]
But to me, this notion of a group sacrifice to fuel that thing is revolting. You know my personal history. I have had conversations with several of you about my personal history, and it is difficult to stomach that while I spoke of such things, this is what was happening.
[Her emotions about this really are just. Yikes. The trauma she has around this she doesn't talk about with anyone, but she did with some of them because they already knew. But she hasn't ever been able to see these tradeoffs, the way death has been used as a catalyst to grand wishes, as anything but another form of the same thing.]
I. . . the fact that I find it revolting does not mean I don't understand why it was tempting, or why it seemed like the only path. It's simply that it's difficult for me, to look at it unemotionally.
Yeah, I know. [it's all she says at first, but her emotions say enough that words don't. she understands that it isn't pleasant, that this is a shock and that this isn't something harrow would have necessarily chosen herself.]
...when we were first given the offer to ascend to being avatars or whatever, it's not like we were told that we'd be hosting a bunch of you to kill off. It was either take the offer or give up. So we took the offer, and nearly a month later we learned you guys were coming. You guys were going to generate indulgence, and it would be enough. That was the supposed plan. It was the only path we had at the time.
So I'm not asking you not to be emotional about it, or to not be angry at those of us who're sticking to the idea. But I hope you can also understand why I'm not angry with them.
[She presses down the ugly feeling, trying to stay calm.]
I'm not an idiot. Things never added up. I've understood for weeks now that all of you had a different agenda than ours, and I've been skeptical of whether we would really make it out of here alive.
[She chews on her nail a little.] If I learned all of this in a vacuum, I don't think I would care? That you would rather all of you have a chance than try to save a bunch of strangers - obviously. That you felt you had to lie to us so we'd continue to generate indulgence - sure. It makes sense. I don't feel particularly deceived. Not even by those of you who were friendly. I distrusted some of you a little, but I ought to have been more cautious, and that's my fault. I don't even feel, recalling all of these conversations, that I was encouraged to trust you. I just decided on my own that I could, which was spectacularly stupid.
So I wouldn't be angry, and especially not with those of you who've always said you weren't here to help us. I know what Pride is here for, and a little of what Despair is here for, and I don't exactly fault them for caring more about that.
But. [Just a swell of sadness here.] I don't do well when people I care for are treated carelessly. And I think the way some of us were encouraged to feel close to you was cruel. [She doesn't feel that way on her own behalf; she should have been smarter. But when she thinks of other people here. . . ]
At what point was Beauregard gone, and no one thought to tell him? Was the calculus that it wouldn't do any good, because he'd be dead soon enough, too? [Because that sucks. And it isn't the mean Avatars she's angry at for this.]
You make it sound like--[...you know what. never mind. she just shuts up and lets harrow talk and effectively shuts down how she's feeling about the conversation. this is a business discussion.]
The "calculus" was that a lot of us didn't realize it right away because we don't always know what's going on with the dead, and even then it isn't a totally lost cause. We don't know how the wish thing works. Would you have rather we said there wasn't a chance in hell he could maybe use his wish to bring her back? That you were all absolutely definitely doomed from the start even though things are already going differently than when we were by ourselves? What would have been your solution to all of this, Harrowhark?
I'm not talking to you for this for my health. If I wanted to be angry at you about it, I can be angry on my own. I'm telling you why I'm angry and giving you your opportunity to say your piece, so don't hold back.
You can't ask me to understand while skipping over the parts where you explain what you were thinking.
You make it sound like us caring about you and trying to get to know you was completely manipulative. [it's not that she doesn't get why, but it frustrates her anyway.]
Haven't you ever thought that maybe there can be two different agendas here?
[Okay, there we go. She sighs, chews on her lip a little.]
. . . It just isn't something I can understand. But that's not because I think you're being dishonest, when you say it isn't. I recognize that I have lived a very solitary life and. . . ordinary social dynamics often elude me.
I suppose if all along you were hoping it wouldn't turn out the way it was expected to turn out, and tried to act accordingly, I get what you were doing. But it can't come as a surprise that some of us would view these interactions negatively, once we came to know what we now know.
I never said it was a surprise, but you can't tell me that you wouldn't be a little hurt if someone came up to you and started throwing around accusations that they assumed were right and then tried to pick a fight about it.
[she can be fighty but also harrow please.]
I bet you haven't even asked most of us what we came here for, huh? Not that it matters to you I guess, but...it's sort of a funny thought.
I meant people besides me because I haven't even told the others exactly why I'm here. [but. she huffs.]
...there's someone I have to save and make sure he doesn't get taken away again. That's what I tell everyone who asks. But there's a second part, too. There isn't really a great time to drop the "by the way, I'm dying" lore, so...it just never came up. And I didn't tell you because it felt manipulative to say that I'm trying to live longer than the month I've got left.
Do you get it? [so yes it was intrusive but she's really the dumbass here for not wanting to say it and influence people's decision, except now she's mad people are making assumptions. lust is a moron.]
I know for some of them, because they told me. Pride, Gluttony. [She answers this with a lot less defensiveness.] The fact that I don't know for others is not a function of my not caring about them. I don't like when people asking me prying personal questions, and I don't tend to know how to ask personal questions without feeling like I'm prying where I'm not wanted.
[Anyway, she'll listen to the rest of that. She doesn't have much to say to it - it's a wish that makes sense. She wants to help someone else, and she wants to save herself.]
I wouldn't have thought it was manipulative. It is a true statement of your motivations. It's a good thing to want.
[She hesitates again. . .]
I won't pretend I didn't come to pick a fight, in part. But it's not because I hate you or just want to take my anger out on you. I just - it isn't as though you like me, which makes me feel as though I can trust what you say somewhat.
I'm not coming to throw accusations at you, or to try to suggest I don't care about your predicament or don't find your motivations understandable. If I felt that way, I wouldn't be talking to you at all.
[...she just uses both of her hands to drag down her face.]
I think this whole thing is a really big miscommunication thing, because I do like you, and that's why this conversation is going in circles. Because I like you, that's why it feels shitty. Make sense?
[but she pauses to think of how to elaborate.]
...the whole thing's a giant mess, I won't lie to you about that. Some of us don't care. I won't lie to you about that either. And some of us are busy trying to decide what to do now. Whatever you decide, that's fine. We all know your position on these things, so it's not like we can stop you from doing what you want to do. All we can do is listen and tell you what we think.
[Well, okay. She'll go a lot less aggro about that. Because she didn't really realize that, because she's bad at interacting with people.]
Well. Listen. I don't particularly know what the options are. [So 'doing what you want to do' seems premature.] I know you don't either.
Just. My perspective is not that I don't care about all of you surviving or getting your wishes, or that I wish for us to be enemies.
I would say my priority right now is very simply not being eaten by a creature, and then once that's assured, I can begin to think of other priorities. But those priorities for me include that - I have sworn an oath to myself that I will not die or give up on what I came here for. [And she has to hold on to that oath, because she doesn't know what her wish is or particularly value her life without it, either.] And if we don't get what we came here for, some of us are in the same boat you are. They're dead, or likely to die. If I'm sent home, I am also very likely to die. So those aren't priorities I can let go of.
Nor do I expect the eight of you to let go of your own identical priorities for yourselves and for one another. And if those two goals turn out to be incompatible with one another, it leaves us at cross purposes, whether I want it to be that way or not.
The options are, right now, going your own way, listening to us, or finding another route. There has to be a reason you guys are learning way more than we ever did. But whatever it is? We have no idea.
I don't think it's wrong to make that a priority. Like...I don't think any of us want to actually get eaten. And I don't think there's anything wrong with not giving up.
We're going to have to see what else comes up and what other plans make themselves known, I think. You guys are learning more all the time, so...maybe those goals will line up, maybe they won't. But it's not like we really do know more than you do at this point.
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[she just believes it really doesn't want to unless it has to.]
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Do we have a win condition, that you're aware of? Or are we fucked?
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[Good. A nod, a little rush of relief.]
It isn't as though I was going to say oh well, guess I'll die even if you said it was nothing. [Hmm.] What about you? If we're not fucked, are you then fucked? With the rate you've all been turning, I can't imagine you have all that much time left to see us all dead.
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I don't know. [a swirl of unease.] I mean maybe. Depends on how much indulgence has been generated and what this thing's doing next.
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Yes, and no. I don't really expect any of you to lay down your lives or give up the things you want for us. And that's essentially what we'd be asking, with no promise it would even work. If I understand correctly, Pride and Despair are among those who want to stick to the plan. I don't particularly feel surprised or misled by that. [Neither of them ever suggested they were here to make friends? Honestly, Pride especially essentially told her not to believe she'd get out of here without a fight.]
But to me, this notion of a group sacrifice to fuel that thing is revolting. You know my personal history. I have had conversations with several of you about my personal history, and it is difficult to stomach that while I spoke of such things, this is what was happening.
[Her emotions about this really are just. Yikes. The trauma she has around this she doesn't talk about with anyone, but she did with some of them because they already knew. But she hasn't ever been able to see these tradeoffs, the way death has been used as a catalyst to grand wishes, as anything but another form of the same thing.]
I. . . the fact that I find it revolting does not mean I don't understand why it was tempting, or why it seemed like the only path. It's simply that it's difficult for me, to look at it unemotionally.
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...when we were first given the offer to ascend to being avatars or whatever, it's not like we were told that we'd be hosting a bunch of you to kill off. It was either take the offer or give up. So we took the offer, and nearly a month later we learned you guys were coming. You guys were going to generate indulgence, and it would be enough. That was the supposed plan. It was the only path we had at the time.
So I'm not asking you not to be emotional about it, or to not be angry at those of us who're sticking to the idea. But I hope you can also understand why I'm not angry with them.
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[She presses down the ugly feeling, trying to stay calm.]
I'm not an idiot. Things never added up. I've understood for weeks now that all of you had a different agenda than ours, and I've been skeptical of whether we would really make it out of here alive.
[She chews on her nail a little.] If I learned all of this in a vacuum, I don't think I would care? That you would rather all of you have a chance than try to save a bunch of strangers - obviously. That you felt you had to lie to us so we'd continue to generate indulgence - sure. It makes sense. I don't feel particularly deceived. Not even by those of you who were friendly. I distrusted some of you a little, but I ought to have been more cautious, and that's my fault. I don't even feel, recalling all of these conversations, that I was encouraged to trust you. I just decided on my own that I could, which was spectacularly stupid.
So I wouldn't be angry, and especially not with those of you who've always said you weren't here to help us. I know what Pride is here for, and a little of what Despair is here for, and I don't exactly fault them for caring more about that.
But. [Just a swell of sadness here.] I don't do well when people I care for are treated carelessly. And I think the way some of us were encouraged to feel close to you was cruel. [She doesn't feel that way on her own behalf; she should have been smarter. But when she thinks of other people here. . . ]
At what point was Beauregard gone, and no one thought to tell him? Was the calculus that it wouldn't do any good, because he'd be dead soon enough, too? [Because that sucks. And it isn't the mean Avatars she's angry at for this.]
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The "calculus" was that a lot of us didn't realize it right away because we don't always know what's going on with the dead, and even then it isn't a totally lost cause. We don't know how the wish thing works. Would you have rather we said there wasn't a chance in hell he could maybe use his wish to bring her back? That you were all absolutely definitely doomed from the start even though things are already going differently than when we were by ourselves? What would have been your solution to all of this, Harrowhark?
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[She really is getting frustrated here.]
I'm not talking to you for this for my health. If I wanted to be angry at you about it, I can be angry on my own. I'm telling you why I'm angry and giving you your opportunity to say your piece, so don't hold back.
You can't ask me to understand while skipping over the parts where you explain what you were thinking.
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Haven't you ever thought that maybe there can be two different agendas here?
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. . . It just isn't something I can understand. But that's not because I think you're being dishonest, when you say it isn't. I recognize that I have lived a very solitary life and. . . ordinary social dynamics often elude me.
I suppose if all along you were hoping it wouldn't turn out the way it was expected to turn out, and tried to act accordingly, I get what you were doing. But it can't come as a surprise that some of us would view these interactions negatively, once we came to know what we now know.
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[she can be fighty but also harrow please.]
I bet you haven't even asked most of us what we came here for, huh? Not that it matters to you I guess, but...it's sort of a funny thought.
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[So that feels a little unfair.]
It isn't that I don't care? I consider it an intrusive question to ask someone.
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...there's someone I have to save and make sure he doesn't get taken away again. That's what I tell everyone who asks. But there's a second part, too. There isn't really a great time to drop the "by the way, I'm dying" lore, so...it just never came up. And I didn't tell you because it felt manipulative to say that I'm trying to live longer than the month I've got left.
Do you get it? [so yes it was intrusive but she's really the dumbass here for not wanting to say it and influence people's decision, except now she's mad people are making assumptions. lust is a moron.]
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[Anyway, she'll listen to the rest of that. She doesn't have much to say to it - it's a wish that makes sense. She wants to help someone else, and she wants to save herself.]
I wouldn't have thought it was manipulative. It is a true statement of your motivations. It's a good thing to want.
[She hesitates again. . .]
I won't pretend I didn't come to pick a fight, in part. But it's not because I hate you or just want to take my anger out on you. I just - it isn't as though you like me, which makes me feel as though I can trust what you say somewhat.
I'm not coming to throw accusations at you, or to try to suggest I don't care about your predicament or don't find your motivations understandable. If I felt that way, I wouldn't be talking to you at all.
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I think this whole thing is a really big miscommunication thing, because I do like you, and that's why this conversation is going in circles. Because I like you, that's why it feels shitty. Make sense?
[but she pauses to think of how to elaborate.]
...the whole thing's a giant mess, I won't lie to you about that. Some of us don't care. I won't lie to you about that either. And some of us are busy trying to decide what to do now. Whatever you decide, that's fine. We all know your position on these things, so it's not like we can stop you from doing what you want to do. All we can do is listen and tell you what we think.
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Well. Listen. I don't particularly know what the options are. [So 'doing what you want to do' seems premature.] I know you don't either.
Just. My perspective is not that I don't care about all of you surviving or getting your wishes, or that I wish for us to be enemies.
I would say my priority right now is very simply not being eaten by a creature, and then once that's assured, I can begin to think of other priorities. But those priorities for me include that - I have sworn an oath to myself that I will not die or give up on what I came here for. [And she has to hold on to that oath, because she doesn't know what her wish is or particularly value her life without it, either.] And if we don't get what we came here for, some of us are in the same boat you are. They're dead, or likely to die. If I'm sent home, I am also very likely to die. So those aren't priorities I can let go of.
Nor do I expect the eight of you to let go of your own identical priorities for yourselves and for one another. And if those two goals turn out to be incompatible with one another, it leaves us at cross purposes, whether I want it to be that way or not.
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I don't think it's wrong to make that a priority. Like...I don't think any of us want to actually get eaten. And I don't think there's anything wrong with not giving up.
We're going to have to see what else comes up and what other plans make themselves known, I think. You guys are learning more all the time, so...maybe those goals will line up, maybe they won't. But it's not like we really do know more than you do at this point.
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